Reply to two (2) peers during this discussion.
What is the role of shame in the lives of these soldiers? Does it drive them to acts of heroism, or stupidity? Or both? What is the relationship between shame and courage, according to O'Brien?
Reply to two (2) peers during this discussion.
Alyssa Saggio
5/20/2014 06:57:55 am
Throughout "The Things They Carried," each man has a different reason or motivator for why he is at war. Although there are times that some actions lead to feelings of happiness (When Curt Lemon went Trick or Treating for Halloween), there are numerous times while other actions lead to guilt and regret (When Tim O'Brien killed a man with a grenade). However, every action has its consequences and often times during war, the line between right and wrong is very blurred. But so are acts of heroism and stupidity; actions of shame may lead to either or. With consequences comes the responsibility of a person's actions. Usually, the soldiers use shame as a motivator for why they do the things they do. For example, O'Brien was driven to go to war due to fear of embarrassment or shame; he didn't want to be thought of as a wimp by his friends and family because he was too cowardly to fight for his country. Shame ultimately lead O'Brien to his decision of either leaving or staying in war. I think this event can be seen as both shameful or stupid. Someone may see O'Brien's point of view and tell him not to be an embarrassment to the country. However, other people may tell him that he is being stupid for letting other opinions influence his own decisions. While he may be thought of as not being brave, he may also be thought of as being stupid. If you don't believe in war, you shouldn't have to go...plain and simple.
Brian Burke
5/22/2014 05:13:27 am
I believe you're saying that shame and courage of a person is measured not by society as a whole but individuals who interpret it. It's hard to tell if someone did something because they had courage or if they're did not want to face the shame. Shame and courage are unfortunately closely related. You gave examples such as trick or treating and also O'Brien killing a man with the grenade. I'd like to reflect on that moment and say that my opinion is that it took courage to do that. And the fact that he may have save other peoples lives because of that should not be looked at shamefully. To contradict that O'Brien seems to show a lot of regret. That supports the idea that courage and shame are up for interpretation.
Devin Blattner
5/20/2014 10:09:05 am
Shame has a huge impact in these soldiers lives. If you think about it, shame is what has brought them to the Vietnam war. They thought that if they were an embarrassment if they tried to get out of the war. Also, these soldiers are working hard to defend America and would probably feel very ashamed if they failed to do that. Shame pushes these soldiers to achieve acts of heroism, such as going to war. It is said that O'Brien was originally not going to go to war because he was a coward but then she was ridiculed and felt shamed which lead him to change his mind and become a member of the war. O'Brien also says courage is the exact opposite of shame, an act of self interest, because courage is used to help others. O'Brien also states that courage is the opposite of shame.
Brian Burke
5/20/2014 04:37:23 pm
I believe that it's hard to tell whether shame has an effect throughout the war. I certainly think shame was a huge portion of the reason many people didn't flee the draft. The shame of being a coward and not fighting was probably why people joined. Once you're in the war, you're there. There's no shame in my opinion. These soldiers are all sacrificing their lives whether they feel heroic or not. Of course a person may use shame as a reason to do a stupid or heroic move. Not quite because it's shame. A better way to describe it is how guys would expect another guy to do something stupid because they're men. It's almost an obligation to make actions to prove manhood or a point. Being drafted put men into the position to either man up and accept they're going to war or be cowards and run. Most men would not be able to bare the shame of running so they're forced to prove themselves and join. O'Brien speaks of the shame he would have felt if he did not accept his fate. By rejecting the shame and accepting the draft, O'Brien and any other person drafted had showed some sort of courage.
Tori McCaslin
5/20/2014 04:44:00 pm
I think that shame has a huge impact on soldiers. They believed that since they were fighting for America and representing our country, they needed to win. If they didn’t then they would be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves. I think that shame is a main driving factor or reason to want to be a hero and fight harder. O’brien says that courage is in fact the opposite of shame. People have courage in order to help others and themselves be better. O’brien knew he needed to join the army because if he didn’t he knew he would feel shame.
Cole
5/21/2014 11:21:45 am
I do agree with you when you say that shame has a significant impact on soldiers, but I never thought about shame as a driving factor. It's interesting that you thought of that. I feel as if shame would actually prevent you from doing what you need to get done, especially if you're in the war doing unspeakable things that you don't necessarily agree with. Also, people definitely use courage to help themselves and others do better in whatever, but you don't really need courage. If you are scared, you can use that to help people as well.
Cole
5/21/2014 07:01:08 am
In this book, there are a lot of things that happened that they wished never had. and that they could forget about, things that they are ashamed about. This feeling of shame that they carry around with them can motivate them, or it could push them to do stupid things. Depending on the character and their state of mind, they will react differently. Just going into and fighting in this war could be considered a shameful thing to some of the characters, O'Brien for example. Shame and courage are related to O'Brien because when he decided to go to war due to the draft, he thought he was giving up his courage which was shameful to him.
Alyssa Saggio
5/21/2014 09:32:05 am
Hi everyone! I guess this is a Rey to those of you who have posted this far: Devin, Brian, Tori and Cole. I chose to reply to each of you because you all have a commonality throughout your posts. Each of you mentioned O'Brien's shame being the ultimate drive for why he chose to go to war. Most of you stated that going to war is courageous in itself and that anyone who goes is extremely brave. However...you're all forgetting that O'Brien had originally wanted no part of war. He didn't want to go, nor did he agree with the fighting. Although it was heroic of him to participate....I would say that he is more shameful for giving into the pressure of others. Why let someone else's opinions influence your own? Even if you do seem "cowardly," who cares what anyone thinks? In my eyes, the drafting process was irrational and not okay. Men had no way out if they didn't want to participate. You all have to remember that war is terrifying and no one should be forced against there will to go. Although I can understand why it is shameful to flee to another country (like Canada), I think it would be courageous of O'Brien to stand up for what he believed in the most.
Brian Burke
5/22/2014 05:19:36 am
This post is a curve ball. I don't want to repeat myself from previous post but I'd like to add that shame and courage could be different to other people. Here you demonstrated your opinion that contradicts most of ours. There is no way to say whether you're right or wrong. I personally like your take on the situation. I agree that it would be courageous is O'Brien stood for what he believed in rather than joining. On the other side someone may say that he's not courageous because he's neglecting his duties to go. It's strange how differently one person may view something opposed to another. Comments are closed.
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